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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:02 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
This is why in my opinion it is very important to distinguish between Setting and Story.

Distinguish – yes. Seperate them – no. The entire reason for me and my group creating a new setting for any new campaign is that, as I have often put forth, certain settings support certain themes more than others. If theme interests you, and you find yourself having to play in a setting that doesn’t mesh well with the themes you’re intereted in, or worse, runs counter to those themes, chances are that you won’t be able to tell a story that interests you in that setting. So while setting and and story are different, they are still closely connected.

Crow Caller wrote:
Its also why I like the Shared Setting creation of Grettirs, although it does IMO sacrifice alot of things I like about established Settings it does equally (if not more) open up the ability for everyone to tell the stories together.

Well put. I’ve never tried to sell my group’s style of playing as the ultimate one, but I have desired to create an awareness that there is this alternative style and that it is a very worthwhile one – for some people, even though they may not even realize it, in fact more worthwhile than the traditional styles. It’s just that you can’t have everything – it’s a tradeoff, and you’ve got to chose. But it’s always better to make an informed than an uninformed choice.

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Grettir, just so we are clear; I really like Shared Setting Creation and the ability it has to drive the story! I fully intent to play this way more often.

However, as you so aptly put, it is a trade-off, and unfortunately I can't see anyway around it, though that doesn't mean I'll stop looking :P

Cheers & God Bless!

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:02 am 
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What about a post-apocalyptic game? I know this is pretty cliche but at the same time... I don't think I have ever personally seen it done right. Theirs a lot you could change with it too - You don't need a lot of advanced technology, usable that is anyway. Any thoughts on that?

I'd also be interested in a horror type game... not exactly WoD but... scary haunted house, big creepy castle, with MAYBE a vampire. Less combat and more.. problem solving?


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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:38 am 
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Crow Caller wrote:
Grettir, just so we are clear; I really like Shared Setting Creation and the ability it has to drive the story!

Don't worry, that's how I have come to understand it.

Jegol wrote:
What about a post-apocalyptic game? I know this is pretty cliche but at the same time... I don't think I have ever personally seen it done right. Theirs a lot you could change with it too - You don't need a lot of advanced technology, usable that is anyway. Any thoughts on that?

What theme would you want to address in a game set in a post-apocalyptic world?

If I think of the tone pervading for instance the “Mad Max” movies, the clash between individual well-being and communal well-being, between selfishness and altruism, comes to my mind. That’s of course a worthy theme, but for me personally contrite, with a pre-programmed answer – unless the post-apocalyptic setting is given a twist where the existing community itself is inhumane, maybe something that’s very rigid, to the point of fascism, to guarantee the continued survival of humanity. Some kind of inherent struggle between deeply selfish, predatory, and destructive individualists on the one hand and a very advantageous and beneficial but also smotheringly rigid and strict community on the other hand, and with some in-built reason why the community can’t simply shed its rigidity.

Just an idea, though, nothing I’m terribly keen on myself.

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:51 am 
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Personally I wouldn't be interested in a Post-apocalyptic setting at this time, not because I don't like them, on the contrary I love them. It's just that I have just finished playing FOUR Post Apoc games and am STILL playing a FIFTH one... needless to say I'm a little overkilled on the Apoc thing at the moment.

Grettir has done the right thing here in clearing the way for people to suggest Themes as well as Settings.

Please feel free to share any and all ideas. Keep em casual this is just a sandbox for kicking around ideas. If somebody sees Jurgol's idea for a Post Apoc game and perhaps they really like Grettirs Theme aswell then they can take it from there and start a game if they like. Or perhaps they might just want to discuss it further. As said, any and all ideas are welcome!

Cheers & God Bless!

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:57 pm 
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So would anyone actually be interested in playing in an Antediluvian world? For those not sure I'll try and shed a little light on the Setting aswell as introduce perhaps a Theme, hopefully from there a discussion will begin.

Setting: The setting is our own world only before the Great Flood depicted in the Myths of countless cultures and detailed in the Book of Genesis.

The world is both similar and different to our own is filled with many weird and wonderful creatures, some natural and some supernatural. Great Dragons roam the land lairing in secluded areas of untouched wilderness.

The land is cursed and man is forced to fight nature in epic battles at every turn.

The Sun is brighter making the days warmer, but its rays are less harmful due to the world's thicker atomosphere. The same atmosphere is rich with oxygen enabling people to run for hours without growing fatigued. It also enables people, plants and animals to grow larger. Man averages 2 meters in height, whilst some creatures such as the dragonfly are hundreds of times larger than their modern counterparts.

The moon shines brightly at night time, its surface covered with molten magma (It would look somewhat like this picture of the Sun).

Mankind has built great cities, and through they teachings of the 'gods' have discovered how to work both metals and magic.

Furthermore the 'gods' have taken many mortal women as brides, and born to them are great giants. These giants are renowned for their great and wicked deeds (think Herakles).

Great wars sweep the lands, as 'gods' battle 'gods', giants battle giants and mankind battles them all!

As far as Theme is concerned I think it would be interesting to tackle morality or perhaps more specifically morality pertaining to 'heroes' with the question "What really make a hero a hero".

Throw in a healthy dose of Greek Tragidy and I'd take it hook line and sinker :P but the question is, is anyone else interested in the setting/theme?

Ofcourse if anyone was interested in the Setting, then there wouldn't be a whole lot of room for Shared Setting creation. Though then again, pouring over the myths of countless early people (especially the Myths surrounding the middle east) would enable people to add bits of myth they like into the setting. Also when developing the lands, cultures and cities further there would be room for everyone to contribute.

So yeah, if anyone is interested then let me know, otherwise as always please feel free to make your suggestions.

Also if I was to open up a Shared Setting thread for a new game right now how many people would be interested in playing?

Cheers & God Bless!

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:10 pm 
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Epic über-hero stuff isn't really my cup of tea, sorry.

As for the shared setting creation, I always try to limit the characters I play to a maximum of three... and all those three spots are taken right now. But as I understand that most Michael's games last for a five sessions or so, we have already roughly completed 20% of the Ozomatli game...

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:41 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Epic über-hero stuff isn't really my cup of tea, sorry.


That's fair enough, how every I wonder what exactly your definition of "Epic über-hero stuff" is. Would you consider Conan as such, or was it the reference to Herakles that threw you? If so it is worth noting that I personally don't see PC's playing Herakles, more Jason or David (from the Bible) or Leonidas from 300 etc. etc.

Quote:
As for the shared setting creation, I always try to limit the characters I play to a maximum of three... and all those three spots are taken right now. But as I understand that most Michael's games last for a five sessions or so, we have already roughly completed 20% of the Ozomatli game...


I personally feel that Grettir's game is heading for a big climax of events in the not too distant future though the way this game keeps twisting and turning one never knows. :P

I also don't like playing in too many games, however I find that online is somewhat of an exception to this, I find it doesn't take nearly as much time (its not like you sit at a table for four or five hours like a RL game) so I feel pretty comfortable in playing or running several online games at the same time.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:15 pm 
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First of all, Crow Caller, from my expereince it is detrimental to try to create a setting from both flavour and theme at the same time – one has to flow from the other, tying to work from both ends towards the middle means inviting disaster. If not everybody is sold on a certain flavour (happens in my group most frequently when we are all currently inflamed by the same movie or book), starting outwith theme does in my experience wotk better. In your case that means posing the question what theme(s) underlie(s) ancient mythology.

Crow Caller wrote:
As far as Theme is concerned I think it would be interesting to tackle morality or perhaps more specifically morality pertaining to 'heroes' with the question "What really make a hero a hero".

Just speaking theoretically – I think that theme’s not only much too vague to begin with, it is also a theme present at least in parts in every half-way ambitious game where characters are not villains.

To proceed to the personal, such a theme would only interst me if it was much more specific. I don’t quite know what the core material you draw your inspiration from is, but if you are aiming for a tone closer to Greek mythology than the Hercules series on TV, that theme won’t in all probability not ake you far. Greek heroes are frequently appallingly selfish, exhibiting near-total disregard for the averse effects their actions do frequently have on society – and still they are regarded as heroes.

Shooting from the hip I’d say that the Greek hero (and also Gilgamesh) follow a very knightly ethic, the morals of a noble caste untouched by Christianity’s notions of humility. For them, the unblemished honour and indeed thick-headed pride of the noble individual is literally worth at least as much if not more than the physical well-being or indeed lives of the faceless multitude. Just look at Achilles, best-loved of Greek heroes, whose wounded pride caused him to sit by idly while countless of his countrymen where slaughtered and indeed his entire nation brought to the brink of ruin. A mere “what makes a hero”, especially if posed by men with modern sentiments, will never lead to a recreation of this flavour.

A thematic key seems to me to be what Nietzsche called the “aristocratic values”, as opposed to the “values of the masses”. The former are the morals by which pride, strength, glory, decisive action, honour, achievement, virility and wealth are thought of as “good” and meekness, humility, poverty, austereness, celibacy, temperance, forebearance and modesty as “evil”. These aristocratic values, the values adhered to by the strong and abhorred by the weak, are the values that the protagonists of a heroic age should be following, if it is at all to feel like a heroic age.

Another theme prevalent is that you are always accountable for your own actions – there simply are no mitigating circumstances. If by killing one man you save the lives of a million innocent, you are still as accountable as if you murdered him in cold blood and without provocation – not to the mortal law, but to the whimsical gods. Much of the tragedy in Greek theatre and mythology derives from the fact that the gods won’t give the hero a break and that they are not interested in wether he acted with good reason or to the best of his knowledge or indeed even on direct order of some other god. Greek heroes often find themselves in no-win situations where every possible action will antagonize some god – for it is only accountability to the gods I’ve been speaking of. Accountability to men isn’t important, only accountability to gods or else to certain men who have a god’s favour – which of course boils down to accountability to some god.

Greek heroes have much leeway to inflict harm on people, but I perceive three categories of actions that precipitate great problems:
1) Directly defying a god.
2) Hurting somebody who’s a god’s favourite, no matter wether justified or not.
3) Blasphemy, practically only ever oath-breaking or kin-slaying.
For all three of those it is past the point wether the perpetrator had a choice or did even know that he transgressed. The sin’s in the doing, inentions are meaningless.

The third thematic cornerstone I perceive is passion. Ancient heroes are passionate, and being passionate is considered good and noble – even though it may be convenient, temperance belittles a man and befits no hero. It’s part of the aristocratic morals of the age, where self-restraint is only good for the common herd. The passionate and impulsive nature of the hero does of course create a lot of problems, but then that’s what makes a hero’s life fun.

I don’t have an idea right now how to integrate these three cornerstones into a coherent theme, but I will think about it. Maybe somebody else has an idea.

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:12 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
That's fair enough, how every I wonder what exactly your definition of "Epic über-hero stuff" is. Would you consider Conan as such, or was it the reference to Herakles that threw you? If so it is worth noting that I personally don't see PC's playing Herakles, more Jason or David (from the Bible) or Leonidas from 300 etc. etc.
Conan... well, the movies aside, I've only read The Hour of the Dragon and that was over ten years ago I think... so, as much as I recall from it, Conan would be acceptable. But David? Do you really consider the wimpy slinger as an epic character?

So, yeah, I think it was the Herakles that threw me off, and the general impression of the characters being on the power level like major awnsheglien in Birthright who are much more numerous as the gods are still taking human brides.

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:42 pm 
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higgins wrote:
But David? Do you really consider the wimpy slinger as an epic character?


Lol, you obviously haven't read the rest of his exploits. He goes on to become a great warrior King leading the armies of Israel against the Nephilim (think entire armies composed of Herakles, Achilles, Perseus etc.).

You can also judge his quality by the kind of men who come and fight for him (men who single handedly slay hundreds of enemies).

In all honesty I think David would whoop Conan hardcore! :P

Quote:
So, yeah, I think it was the Herakles that threw me off, and the general impression of the characters being on the power level like major awnsheglien in Birthright who are much more numerous as the gods are still taking human brides.


There would be characters (NPCs) like Herakles in the world, but I think PC's would be much more like Conan, and infact most people would be more or less normal people (more like modern man in height and health and stature than Medeval folk).

These are things to discuss I guess.

I like stories better where the hero isn't the demigod personally, I mean, think again of David, if Goliath (think Herakles) had killed David this would be no great victory, infact it would likely diminish Goliath's name (Goliath the baby killer or some such), but because the rolls are reversed and it is the "wimpy slinger" the story has echoed throughout the ages for about 3,000 years now.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:25 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
Lol, you obviously haven't read the rest of his exploits. He goes on to become a great warrior King leading the armies of Israel against the Nephilim (think entire armies composed of Herakles, Achilles, Perseus etc.).

You can also judge his quality by the kind of men who come and fight for him (men who single handedly slay hundreds of enemies).
LOL, I've never seen the bible being presented as slaughter feast for machos before. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:02 pm 
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There is a trend amongst most Christians thee days to embrace the New Testament (especially Jesus' teachings of love and peace) however they tend to ignore the Old Testament (and Jesus' teachings of war in the New Testament) and its bloody history.

If you were to make a movie of the Bible from start to finish without "censoring" it, then it would be the most violent, bloody and depraved film ever made (this is taking into account the acts of evil men aswell, thing Sodom and Gamorrah!). Infacct I doubt that many people could sit through it.

There are seens in the Bible where a woman drives a tent peg through a sleeping man's head! Not to mention the genocide of men women and children.

As a Christian myself I fully embrace the whole Bible, and although there are parts that make me uncomfortable, I acknowledge that I am not a Jewish warrior living 3000 years ago fight against Nephilim :P.

But yeah, the Bible is more Epic and filled with much greater heores than any greek myth :P if you feel inclined to do so then look up The Thirty... and ofcourse everyone knows about Samson. How he slew thousands of warriors with an donkey's jaw bone and pushed down the pillars to the temple. But not many people know he also tore a City's gates off of their hinges then carried them to the top a hill!!

So yeah, the Bible is a slaughter feast for machos, however if one is to read it only for that then one is missing the true purpose of the scriptures :P

God Bless!!

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:19 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
There would be characters (NPCs) like Herakles in the world, but I think PC's would be much more like Conan, (…)

That’s an approach that would almost certainly turn me off any game. I’ve had my fill of games where my character was some kind of sidekick to the real movers and shakers of the setting, and while I am by no means some kind of power gamer who likes to vent his frustrations by having his characters kick around fictional people I still demand that, if I invest time into a game, I am not deprotagonized. That’s important to any game I play in. There can of course be vastly more “powerful” NPCs aroud, but only off-screen, somewhere in the background. I’ve long since ceased getting any kick out of playing that guy who has the honour of adventuring alongside Aragorn. When I play, I expect it to be my show and he show of my mates.

And then I would quite like to play a hero of the calibre of Samson or Herakles or Achilles – not because I want to kick ass, but because that would for once be something really different from the usual fare.

Crow Caller wrote:
I mean, think again of David, if Goliath (think Herakles) had killed David this would be no great victory, infact it would likely diminish Goliath's name (Goliath the baby killer or some such), but because the rolls are reversed and it is the "wimpy slinger" the story has echoed throughout the ages for about 3,000 years now.

I’ve long been a bit of a devil’s advocate here. David and Goliath’s a story of a guy who goes to a melee duel with a reknown hero (the enemy’s heroes are always another people’s fiends) and shoots his enemy with a gun long before he’s in melee range. Now how dastardly is that? :P

[quote="higgins"]Conan... well, the movies aside, I've only read The Hour of the Dragon and that was over ten years ago I think...
I strongly recommend that you read the original Howard stories (not the pastiches). His tales, no matter about which hero, are the most gripping and thrilling fantasy adventure yarns I’ve ever read, pure enjoyment. Quite different from G. R. R. Martin, but proper stories with a beginning, a middle and an end.

And Conan’s definitely not the uber-hero portrayed in comics, films and pastiches, He loses fights, he is at times treacherous and even cruel, and his chivalry towards women does also only surface when it suits him. There’s for instance a story where he ignores the plea of a white woman to rescue her from captivity and a life of continuing rape, even though he had the means to help her – doing so just doesn’t fit his current plans.

But I’ll stop here, or else I’m launching into a full-fledge rant. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What kind of game WOULD ppl be interested in playing/running
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
Crow Caller wrote:
There would be characters (NPCs) like Herakles in the world, but I think PC's would be much more like Conan, (…)

That’s an approach that would almost certainly turn me off any game. I’ve had my fill of games where my character was some kind of sidekick to the real movers and shakers of the setting, and while I am by no means some kind of power gamer who likes to vent his frustrations by having his characters kick around fictional people I still demand that, if I invest time into a game, I am not deprotagonized. That’s important to any game I play in. There can of course be vastly more “powerful” NPCs aroud, but only off-screen, somewhere in the background. I’ve long since ceased getting any kick out of playing that guy who has the honour of adventuring alongside Aragorn. When I play, I expect it to be my show and he show of my mates.


what I pretty much meant was that players would be Conan, and although Herkles is out there somewhere they won't meet Conan, or if they do then Conan will kick his ass.

Either way I'm not fussed I'm just happy there is discussion about plying Herakles and Conan lol!

Quote:
And then I would quite like to play a hero of the calibre of Samson or Herakles or Achilles – not because I want to kick ass, but because that would for once be something really different from the usual fare.


Damn it! Now I'm back to wanting to play Achilles lol! ;)

Quote:
Crow Caller wrote:
I mean, think again of David, if Goliath (think Herakles) had killed David this would be no great victory, infact it would likely diminish Goliath's name (Goliath the baby killer or some such), but because the rolls are reversed and it is the "wimpy slinger" the story has echoed throughout the ages for about 3,000 years now.

I’ve long been a bit of a devil’s advocate here. David and Goliath’s a story of a guy who goes to a melee duel with a reknown hero (the enemy’s heroes are always another people’s fiends) and shoots his enemy with a gun long before he’s in melee range. Now how dastardly is that? :P


Hmm, was it a melee duel? I'm not familar with the rules of engagement so to say. I know that in the Movie Troy they pretty much rip off the account of David and Goliath as Achilles (Brad Pitt) goes up against the 7 fott tall Boagrius. In this duel Boagrius throws his spears/javelins. Perhaps Goliath was planning on throwing his spear (that was like a weaver's beam) at David, but the shepard got the jump?

Quote:
higgins wrote:
Conan... well, the movies aside, I've only read The Hour of the Dragon and that was over ten years ago I think...

I strongly recommend that you read the original Howard stories (not the pastiches). His tales, no matter about which hero, are the most gripping and thrilling fantasy adventure yarns I’ve ever read, pure enjoyment. Quite different from G. R. R. Martin, but proper stories with a beginning, a middle and an end.


Well then I'll have to get a hold of them too then, I've only seen the movies and read about the originals online. Conan has always been one of the books (series) that I meant to read but have never gotten around to it. Since I haven't been able to find a single decent story in over a year now perhaps I'll look to Conan.

Quote:
And Conan’s definitely not the uber-hero portrayed in comics, films and pastiches, He loses fights, he is at times treacherous and even cruel, and his chivalry towards women does also only surface when it suits him. There’s for instance a story where he ignores the plea of a white woman to rescue her from captivity and a life of continuing rape, even though he had the means to help her – doing so just doesn’t fit his current plans.


Out of curiosity was the colour of the Slave girl important here? Does Conan not care for non-White women or something?

Quote:
But I’ll stop here, or else I’m launching into a full-fledge rant. :lol:

Damn it man, by all means rant! Rant like you've never ranted before!!

As an "amusing"(?) sidenote my real name is Grant (as I've mentioned before but it gets lost in the Crow :P) but my brother's name for me is Rant, must have something to do with that thick skull of mine ;)

Cheers & God with you!

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