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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:47 am 
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This all sounds good to me. I am actually looking forward to the individual nations getting a bit more fluffed out.


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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:37 am 
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Later today, I will then repost my outline of technology in western Weyrth, without the part on the "Middle East", in the "Canon"-thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:28 pm 
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Damn it, I wish I had got in on this at ground Zero. I initially posted the following in Ian's Thread on "What is Canon" but realised it didn't belong there, nevertheless it is in response to Grettir's post in the same Thread.

I feel very strongly that the Real World dating compared to Weyrth should be the Year 1200 (with countries such as Xanaria reaching into the 1300's, and Savaxia dragging back in the 1000s-1100s) I also feel this is what was intended by Jake.

Here's Grettir's post from the other thread, and my response:

Crow Caller wrote:
Grettir wrote:
A short guideline to technology in western Weyrth:

The most advanced nation is the Seat of the Xanarian Empire, with all others lagging behind to some degree, with gelure maybe closest on the Xanarians’ heels. The technology available to the Seat of the Xanarian Empire is similar to that available to Europe in around 1425, with two exceptions: Weapon technology (arms and armour) is more advanced by some 25 years, and all development of gunpowder and gunpowder weaponry is less advanced by some 25 years, and thus comparable to Europe in around 1450 and 1400, respectively.


I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but in This Thread on the old boards, Xanaria is described as a composite of real world Itlay in the (presumably early) 1300's with that of the Roman Empire of about 400.

By setting Xanaria in 1425 the other Nations to the North will likewise require equally high tech to compete, this puts a major strain on the feasability of counties such as Picti and Savaxia.

By keeping it at 1300, then we can set Savaxia at the end of the Viking age at around 1100. This lets us set Gelure at about 1200 as a buffer zone. It also eliminates most firearms from the game which is more in keeping with the MRB as I understand it (AFAIK only Krym-Kanaan have firearms).

Another reason I see it as essential to place Xanaria in the year 1300, is the development of ships. It is my understannding that Longships (the ships of Savaxia) survived int he real world into the 14th century, so it is workable, however even by the 14th century the Longship was being far outclassed, not real good for a nation of sea-borne raiders. If we sky-rocket Xanarian ship tech by another century then the Savaxians can say good night.

Going further, a quick study of Oakeshott's Typology informs us that the Type X blade was in use from the 11th Century thru to the 14th Century. This means that the Savaxians can have access to the same level of sword Techknowledgy as most the west of Mainlund, though admittingly they are only coming into a tech that is already being surpassed elsewhere. It is just another link to make Weyrth work that would be broken by advancing the Xanarian Empire by a hundred and fifty years.

Without Access to the MRB I can't really comment further on the tech levels of the other countries. I think I remember Stalh as having access to plate armour. This would put them somewhere in the 13th century onwards going by the RW timeline. I think that modelling Stahl after Germany in the year 1200 would be a good way to keep the imagry of Stahl whilst still allowing its neighbours to be slightly lower tech.

Angerhard is said to be modeled after Ireland in the early 1100's this fits with the above assessment of Stahl and allows Savaxians to pillage it lands without too much trouble.

This would allow Oustenreich to range anywhere from 1100 to 1200 depending on the needs of the Setting (that is to say I'm not famillar with what the MRB has to say about Oustenreich), without causing massive tech jumps from nation to nation.

Cyrinthmeir, described as a RennFair land, can be what ever it needs to be, though I would place it at around the year 1200 possible 1300. The only thing I'm worried about is Zaporozhya which is set in the year 1500, though it seems to lack firearms.

Sarmatov can sit comfortabally anywhere from 1100 to 1300, with 1200 again being my bet. Though Magyarfold will need elements of 14th century hungary to stave off the Zaporozhyans.

Heading down south. Helena is descied as classical Greece, so I would set it a full century or two behind Xanaria in tech, then model it on Classical Greece (there are enough weapons that although superior to Classical weapons, are of similar appearance to allow us to pull this off).

Despite the great work Ian's been doing on Taveruun, I don't see how 14th century France can sit next to Otamarluk (based off of the Ottoman Empire in its Heyday, though I'd like to see it dialed back to the beginning of the Ottoman Empire, in the year 1299), and Dardanet (based on Real World Albania, presumably set somewhere around the year 1200). I think Ian's work on Taveruun would be better suited to Gelure with a slight tweak on the tech level.

I guess what I'm saying, I believe that the World of Weyrth is meant to be more closely modeled after 13th to 14th century Europe with through backs to Ancient Greece, and the Roman Empire, and with some countries preogressing steadilly into the 16th century (well, really only 1 country as far as a I can tell, that is, if you rework Otamarluk to the 14th century).

By setting Weyrth in the 13th century, or there abouts, it all comes together to work, otherwise it leaves horrendously large inconsistancies.

Cheers & God Bless!

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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:15 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
Damn it, I wish I had got in on this at ground Zero. I initially posted the following in Ian's Thread on "What is Canon" but realised it didn't belong there, nevertheless it is in response to Grettir's post in the same Thread.

I feel very strongly that the Real World dating compared to Weyrth should be the Year 1200 (with countries such as Xanaria reaching into the 1300's, and Savaxia dragging back in the 1000s-1100s) I also feel this is what was intended by Jake.


There's no real intention here to deliver what Jake or anyone else intended. The descriptions of the kingdoms in TRoS Core and in the old Forge forums contain so many inconsistencies that there's no plausible way to expand upon them with any logic. This is, in my opinion, why Weyrth remained at the level of detail it did -- to go any further based on what had already been written would simply make the inconsistencies more obvious.

So we've taken a different approach. Individual countries are up for grabs for development. When some aspect impacts more than one country it is discussed in this forum and an agreed position is reached. This then becomes canon in our fanon version of Weyrth. Feel free to join in on the development of a country should you feel so inclined!

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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:56 am 
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I understand the idea behind the fan project, however, by moving the "Timeline" further forward tan it already was this is only going to make more inconcistancies. I mean how are we ever going to make Savaxia fit into a world were everyone's Ships are biger and sometimes even faster, were their arms and armour are both centuries more developed, and where their fortifications are so emmense and equipt with canon?

Picti would have to be reworked to the point that it didn't even resemble the Picti of Jake's imagination, and even Angrehard would have to go from Brave Heart to Rob Roy.

I just don't think that there were as many inconsistancies as others, I mean, by setting the "Timeline" of Weyrth between 1100 and 1300 (with it few exceptions) we find that the Ships, Weapons, and even Armour of these times are relatively close. The same swords that were used in 1100 are used in 1300, the same armour is too, even the same ships (Cogs have been round since 980). The only difference is Savaxia is beginning to fall behind the Tech curve, Stahl is developing more and more plate, and their swords are getting longer and longer with bigger grips, the ships are all starting to get a little bigger, etc. etc.

I just think Weyrth can't work if you move the "Timeline" too far forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:15 am 
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Crow Caller wrote:
I understand the idea behind the fan project, however, by moving the "Timeline" further forward tan it already was this is only going to make more inconcistancies.


There is no real-world timeline for Weyrth. Weyrth is an imaginary world with no intention of it being a real-world analog. We haven't shifted the timeline at all.

Quote:
(Note: many of these are more inspiration than mirror images)

Savaxen=Scandanvia/the Norse
Stahl=Germany
Oustenreich=Austria/Switzerland/the Black Forest
Picti=Scotland in the year 400
Angharad=Wales/Ireland in in the early 1100s
Gelure=France, but not really.
Xanaria=Italy of the 1300s combined with Rome of about 400
Cyrinthmeir=RennFaire land
Magyarfold=Hungary
Sarmatov=Poland
Rzeczpospolita=Generic Slavic meets Lithuania
Zhibara=Siberian Russia with early Peter the Great influences, sort of.
Zaporozhya=Southeastern Ukraine around 1500 or so, with parts from 1600's
Krym-Kanaan=Crimea, with some Mongolian in the southeast
Otamarluk=Turkey it its heyday
Helena=Greece, but more classical than medieval by far
Dardanet=Albania
Tez'Hamun=Stargate Egypt
Svarastra=India
Savari=Africa (sort of)
Kudara-Shiragi (undescribed in book)=Korea, Vietnam, etc.
Vhedij=China, really sort of
Tengoku=Kurosawa Japan (sort of)


A few observations about the quote above:

1) This is fanon, not canon. Canon is published material. Fanon is speculative material, of which no particular piece is any more valid than any other no matter who the author.
2) This quote even includes its own caveat -- "(Note: many of these are more inspiration than mirror images)"
3) Zaporozhya is described as 16th century with parts 17th century.
4) Xanaria is described as 1300s Italy. We've added 25 years to that -- in an effort to remove some of the anachronisms present in the MRB canon material.
5) Only 4 countries are given a speculative analog time. Savaxia is not one of those.
6) Many of the countries analogs are completely made up. Stargate Egypt? RennFaire Land? What technological period would you propose for them?

Crow Caller wrote:
I just don't think that there were as many inconsistancies as others, I mean, by setting the "Timeline" of Weyrth between 1100 and 1300 (with it few exceptions) we find that the Ships, Weapons, and even Armour of these times are relatively close.


Why the focus on weaponry? It's not like that's the focus of the technology thread.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:16 am 
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I hate to say it, but Weyrth has no chance of reaching any degree of plausibility if we stick completely to Jake’s vision. In trying to establish a history for Weyrth I have discovered that he has plainly contradicted himself in quite a few areas. And the problem with technology ist that he has created countries with an Early Middle Ages feel (Savaxen, Picti) and dropped them within 500 miles of countries with a Late Middle Ages or Renaissance feel (Gelure, Xanarium). There is no way how this can ever work out without being silly; I mean, Picti is right off the coast of Gelure, right? This gap in the technological development had to be closed. You can justify a technological and civilizational difference of 200 years, but you can’t justify 600 years.

Our solution, which I’d say is a fair compromise, was to cap this at both ends. The more developed countries were moved backward a bit, and the less developed ones were moved foreward. I am not the developer of Savaxen, but the way I view it, the country is just past its viking age. Savaxen does still have this bad reputation from centuries of reiving, and there are still a few raids, but they are becoming less and less important and may be likely to cease completely in a few year’s time. This might contradict your personal preferences, but that doesn’t mean that doesn’t mean it’s inconsistent. Quite the contrary, the whole technology spread I have devised and discussed is very consistent across the board. Speaking of Savaxen again, this means in my imagination that they don’t simply have the most advanced ships anymore; they were surpassed by other nations, and this iis one of the reasons that the viking age is coming to an end. Placing Savaxen at the very end of the viking age instead of in its middle is an entirely possible solution that doesn’t violate what Jake has written and helps to bridge the technological gap.

And speaking of Angharad, I don’t see why our technology does rip it out of the “Braveheart” age and propels it into the “Rob Roy” age. Braveheart is 1300; our most advanced country has a technology comparable to 1425. That’s a difference of but 125 years, entirely plausible for the gap between the most sopisticated and a backwater region. Personally, I would place Angharad even earlier, at around 1250 at the most.

Picti is a difficult case, though. As written, it has a very early feel, certainly no later than 1000 AD – but if Jake wanted to maintain this, he might have done better than to place it just 10 miles off the coast of Gelure, which he has put into the age of the cut-and-thrust blade. This unfortunate proximity means that it is impossible to maintain Picti that early. Even if we move Gelure back a bit, to around 1400 AD and declare the people of Picti to be isolationist and xenophobic and their country largely devoid of ressources and rich soil, it would arlready be stretching it if we declared the country to have a technology as early as 1100 AD.

I could go on and on, but I think I have gotten my point across. I am sure that viable solutions different from ours could have been reached, but on which of them to settle is in the end a matter of taste. You would like to move the more developed countries back to be more in line with the less developed ones, we have preferred to move both ends of the spectrum towards the middle. Our solution does a bit of violence to Jake’s vision all across the board, your solution would leave parts of it untouched but violate others greatly. Which one is truer to Jake’s Weyrth? Matter of taste.

Edit: Reading what Ian has just written on fandom creation, I would like to comment that I, too, am of the opinion that anything written anywhere else than the official TRoS books means little to nothing. I read it for inspiration, but I arrive at my own conclusions, keeping in mind nothing but what has been written by Jake and real-world history.

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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:48 am 
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While I agree with what Ian and Jake are saying with regard to fanon versus canon, shouldn't there be some room for people to come into the game a little late and suggest changes? If the suggested changes would cause too much work and the majority of contributors vote not to include them, that's fine. But as a work of the fan community, the option should be open to honest discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:59 am 
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Ahem, I assume you mean Ian and Grettir/Michael (that’s me!), not Jake, right Daeruin?

As I have been the one pressuring for making certain facts canonical and saying that he would not go an developing anything if there was no canon, let me reply.

We had a discussion like this some three years ago, on the old forum, where I said that I was worried that a team of fandom developers would lack a central authority to say what would go and what wouldn’t. I still am. With nobody to exert this kind of authority, setting down a few communal and agreed-upon guidelines is – a poor – second. But for these guidelines to work at all, they have to be set more or less in stone. If simple majority vote could change them at any time, they are basically nonexistent; this situation would be no different from saying that Weyrth worked in whatever way the majority desired at the time.

Don’t get me wrong, I do think that the guidelines can be discussed, to critizie and to justify them, but I am – violently, really – opposed to changing them by simple vote. They should be open to alteration, but only to unanimous alteration; if a single developer vetoes a change, than that’s that. I really feel that this kind of security is vital to working anything out at all.

Please do not forget that the whole technology thing is not about weapons. Weaponry is the least concern, really. The “tech level” and civilizational organisation go hand in hand, they are completely inseperable. Think agriculture, architecture, commerce, legislation, whatever. Changing the tech level considerably changes the whole civilizational makeup. Much of what I have written on the Xanarian Empire does for instance assume a certain cultural tech level and wouldn’t work otherwise. And I am not referring so much to the published stuff than to a 25+ pages document detailing Xanarium and sitting quite completed on my harddrive, only awaiting a finishing once-over and the completion of the map. To work something like this out, I reall needed – and still need – hard, unalterable facts about Weyrth to build upon.

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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:51 am 
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Yes, sorry Grettir/Michael. I was very distracted when I wrote that post. I came back to it an hour later and just clicked Submit without reading it again.

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 Post subject: Re: Technology on Weyrth
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:15 am 
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Grettir wrote:
Ahem, I assume you mean Ian and Grettir/Michael (that’s me!), not Jake, right Daeruin?


You mean you're not Jake?

Grettir wrote:
We had a discussion like this some three years ago, on the old forum, where I said that I was worried that a team of fandom developers would lack a central authority to say what would go and what wouldn’t.


In other words, someone at Driftwood would have this role and would ensure that the fans weren't publishing anything that contradicted existing canon or anticipated canon. If DP had at any stage taken Weyrth and its development seriously then I think this would have happened. In the end though the fans took the setting more seriously than the publishers.

Grettir wrote:
With nobody to exert this kind of authority, setting down a few communal and agreed-upon guidelines is – a poor – second. But for these guidelines to work at all, they have to be set more or less in stone. If simple majority vote could change them at any time, they are basically nonexistent; this situation would be no different from saying that Weyrth worked in whatever way the majority desired at the time.


Absolutely. I'd add a couple of points though. Firstly, the threads in the Weyrth forum are for discussing things that affect more than one nation. These things need everyone's buy-in -- or else something might get produced in the individual nation forums that contradicts the material others have produced. That would be self defeating. The flip side though is that if you want to develop a nation then all of the decisions that affect only that nation are yours to make. Lots of freedom right there. Secondly, and this is only for myself, I welcome anyone's comments and feedback but if those comments are coming from a contributor to the Weyrth fan material -- well, that adds weight.

Grettir wrote:
Please do not forget that the whole technology thing is not about weapons. Weaponry is the least concern, really. The “tech level” and civilizational organisation go hand in hand, they are completely inseperable. Think agriculture, architecture, commerce, legislation, whatever. Changing the tech level considerably changes the whole civilizational makeup. Much of what I have written on the Xanarian Empire does for instance assume a certain cultural tech level and wouldn’t work otherwise. And I am not referring so much to the published stuff than to a 25+ pages document detailing Xanarium and sitting quite completed on my harddrive, only awaiting a finishing once-over and the completion of the map. To work something like this out, I reall needed – and still need – hard, unalterable facts about Weyrth to build upon.


Absolutely. The canon material contains everything you could ever possibly want to know about weaponry and its use in combat. For the most part this area is about creating a credible gaming environment in which to set those combats.

Regards,

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